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304 North Cardinal St.
Dorchester Center, MA 02124
Monday to Friday: 7AM - 7PM
Weekend: 10AM - 5PM
This is the first in a series of LinkedIn Live talks by Nadine and Phil on leadership conversations. This one focuses on personal space, both concrete (workspace, home space) and figurative (how we protect ourselves).
***The following transcript has been automatically generated and is presented here unchecked***
You’re invading my personal space!
Wed, 8/10 1:49PM • 40:40
space, people, color, conversation, meeting, online, sense, office, leader, feel, important, linkedin, bubble, thinking, white, scent, personal, aromatherapy, nice, difficult
Nadine Powrie 00:01
And good morning, I’m Nadine Powrie.
Hello, I’m Professor Philip Perry.
Nadine Powrie 00:07
And I think we should, we should declare actually a field, it is the first time we are doing a LinkedIn life together.
It is indeed, it’s very exciting.
Nadine Powrie 00:19
It’s very exciting. And I think we should declare that I mean, I mean, our face in our apartment, and you are currently in the living room,
just next door with the doors closed to prevent any echo factor.
Nadine Powrie 00:32
And I can hear actually a little bit of an echo. So when we decided to do LinkedIn live together, we were brainstorming topics. And we thought we would talk about personal space. And we thought we would talk about personal space in the context of what happened during COVID, where the notion of personal space and the notion of workspace become became a real issue. So that was, that’s our first reason why we’re doing this LinkedIn life because we want to share our thoughts on what the space is. And perhaps the second reason, and this time, perhaps a more personal reason is that you and I are going to be moving space, because we’re going to be moving from a small base, which is our apartment, to to a to a bigger house, and in a few weeks time, and we’ve had to rethink about how we are using our space. So this is the context of our LinkedIn life today. And we thought that we would be having some thought provoking statements to start the conversation and then see where we go, because I think it would be fair to say that we were not quite quite plan, where we are going with this conversation, which planned some thought provoking statements. But within that, we don’t know what you and I are going to are going to say other than we love talking. So let’s see where it’s taking us. Okay, so thought provoking. One is how do you design your personal space to be at your best to be at your happiest and to be creative. And my view on that is that personal spaces is a very personal, specific space. And it’s often a safe space where we feel quite protected like I’m in my office, right now the door is closed, and it feels like nothing can happen to me. The other thing about space is that you can’t change the size, often you’re in a you’re in a building, particularly when it’s a closed space. So you’re in a building. And the shape, you know, whether it’s square and rectangle or round cannot be changed, because because it’s been built. And often the size can be changed either unless you decide to demolish walls, but let’s not go there. What you can change, and I think the control that you have on your space, is the fact that you can change the design. And you can change the decor, you may decide to have some lovely paintings, you may decide to have some photos on the wall. And you can add what’s in it. So for example, in the background, we can see that I’ve got shelves, I’ve got flowers, candles, and that’s how I’ve decided to kind of furnish my space for me to be to be at my best and but I know that you are personally interested in the use of color in space. Do you want to talk about it?
Yeah, I suppose that’s partly because I’m a professor of cinema studies. And therefore I tend to look at things like the design of the spaces that are used in, in films and obviously, color. And, you know, even black and white films use color in a in a very specific way. There are different tones that a black and white film can use. But clearly, color is really important. I mean, when I look at your office, for example, which I’m doing right now, what really stands out of those wonderful pink hydrangeas are up on the top shelf, and they stand out partly because they’re there as a contrast to these rather sort of taupe colored walls. Whereas when I look at my space, it’s a bit a little bit drab. There’s no color there. Apart from my blue shirt, you might argue, but colors obviously really important and the way that we think about furnishing our space in terms of the design is going to matter to us. I think quite a lot So at the University where I work with the University of Surrey, there’s, there’s a specific research department called the the baby lab in based in psychology, where they’ve done quite a lot of work on babies perception of color, and how it is that eventually a child recognizes an infant recognizes color. Because as we know, when when we’re first born, we don’t see colors, it takes a while. So how do we acquire this sense of color? For those of us who are not colorblind, of course, and the important thing here is the idea of natural color, they’ve discovered that effectively, an infant reacts, let’s say, rather better, to what we might understand as a natural color. So for example, they’ll react better to a red strawberry than to a blue strawberry. Now, you might argue that that’s actually culturally specific. But the important thing is that infants before they’ve actually acquired any sort of cultural specificities naturally recognize the natural colors. So I guess that what I’m saying here is that natural color is probably really rather important this why so many of us have, for example, green plants in our, in our office spaces, you know that that yucca plant in the corner actually gives you a splash of green, which makes you feel potentially a lot more comfortable. It makes the space feel rather more natural, even if the yucca plant seems like something, which is a bit of a stereotype.
Nadine Powrie 06:41
I think it would be fair to declare that you and I, we have a favorite color, which is white. And then color, you might argue well, well, it is it is a color. I mean, you know, you can decide if you go to a paint shop. And we’ve done that we had millions of colors that we could have chosen for this new house, and we decided to go for White. And I’ve often wondered, why do I prefer white to, for example, the yellowish color that’s in your background. And I like white, because it makes me feel calm. It’s very clean. And I like you know, the minimalistic approach to a space, I don’t like a space that is full of boxes and full of decoration. However, if I did put my, my camera down, I think people would realize that on my floor, there are millions of boxes, because we’ve started to pack and actually, you know, sometime what you see in a space from other people’s space, you actually don’t see everything because because of the angle of the camera. But I also like white because it’s quite harmonious. It’s quite peaceful. Is that why you love white as well?
I think so. I mean, there’s, there’s a really interesting point that’s made about Leonardo da Vinci way back in the Renaissance, where he advised his disciples just to stare at a white wall at a blank wall, as a kind of a meditation, but also so that they could, they could, in a sense, stretch their imagination, you look at a white wall, you start seeing things just like you know, we might look at clouds, for example, plants, often a white, more often white, perhaps, than black. And looking at white clouds, what you see are different types of movements, you see different figures, because you’re imagining the way in which that blank canvas could potentially work. So I guess that’s one of the reasons why we both like white, because it’s not just calming, but it actually gives you a sense of being able to imagine what it is that you need to do within that space. And I think that for leaders, that’s really important, you need to be able to not just be calm, but you also need to be able to be calm enough to imagine the next steps for example, in a particular leadership process, the next conversation that you’re going to have, whether it’s a difficult one or whether it’s a good one, there is a sense in which you have to prepare yourself and that requires a certain level of calm but also a certain level of meditative application if you like and that and that come back to what Leonardo da Vinci said to his disciples just stare at a white wall, and you’ll get the
Nadine Powrie 09:41
and the thing I The other point I want to make is that a personal space is not only about color, but it can be a zoo, about effective scents and the scent. And I remember when I was a head teacher, at ferrum Academy I remember At my staff used to say, when they came into my office, we’re going to the spa. Probably, at that time, you know, one of the very few heads who was using a diffuser, to an aroma therapy, to have a really nice scent into my office, particularly lavender, a very French scent, you know, reminding us all about provenance. So I wasn’t going mad. And at first, people thought, you know, what is what is wrong? What What is it something, something we can’t really, it’s very different. But I wasn’t doing that. For those, I was doing that for me. Because it made me feel safe, it made me feel a little creative, actually. And it was just very, very calming, not necessarily that I was, you know, stressed out as a as a head. Not that. But it just felt right. And it was a resource scent that we were using at home. So for me, you know, we say I mean, we’re both French, well, actually, you you’ve got dual nationality, and French, but I live in England. And it’s the in between, you know, the being in between two culture. However, a scent can remind you of your roots. So here is me working in England, but actually, you know, in my nice little whiter face, having some lavender sun to remind me a little bit about my roots and being grounded, and fought to allow me to be to be at my best. And for me, it worked. It doesn’t mean that it would work for every leaders. But certainly for me, it did something quite different to I think the way I was thinking and how creative I was when I’m absolutely sure that it affected people positively because of the comments that they made. And many of them did say that they felt very, very calm, very zen when they came into that office. But ultimately, I didn’t do that for them. I did it for me, quite selfishly, perhaps. And I never thought that the time that it could influence them, or that they would make any comments. You know, because a cent is not something that you see it’s not visible. It’s just using a different sense. And I guess for me, it made a huge difference. And at home, we still do that we still use aromatherapy in the house in our apartment currently different kind of scent, actually. Because we are sensitive to what’s around us and sent add something quite specific. Do you want to add anything on that?
Yeah, I mean, I think you’re right. I mean, we you know, we do this for ourselves. But there’s a sense in which of course, it is important in terms of the way it affects other people. And you discovered that it became a kind of a powerful tool, in some senses to make people feel more at ease. And for a leader, that’s actually fairly, fairly crucial. Or maybe not, you might argue it depends what kind of leader you want to be. So I mean, a little bit of an anecdote from my point of view, was when I became executive dean at the University of Surrey, I obviously inherited an office. And I went into this office and there was this enormous desk, you know, these kind of clunky, oak desks very dark, very imposing, with a sort of captain’s chair behind it. The desk itself bigger than a ping pong table in a relatively small space, and some not terribly comfortable chairs in front of it. And immediately, you know, I understood that what my predecessors purpose was, was to make herself it was a she actually make herself more imposing, and to make people who were talking to her less comfortable, and partly because I was kind of amazed at this sort of what looked like an antique a kind of relic, which didn’t really fit with what I wanted to do. And when I saw this, I thought to myself, well, how how do I really want to be as a leader? When people are in front of me, what kind of conversation Do I want to have with them? And how can I make them feel at their ease if that is what I really would like to do and it’s certainly not what my predecessor wanted, which is to make them feel uncomfortable because she wanted to achieve certain ends of her own. So I got rid of the desk. And that meant that what I put in it was not a desk, or at least not that kind of desk, just a little desk in the corner, relatively discreet where I could sit and work. But the meeting space was basically comfortable chairs, I mean, they were armchairs with a table. And I decided early on that I would, whenever I had people coming into the room, even if it was going to be for a difficult conversation, I would always make them a cup of green tea. And we would sit quietly, and we would behave like kind of relatively normal human beings, so that I could have a conversation with them, which I felt would make them feel more at their ease. The point being, of course, that this is just a tactic, it’s a tactic to ensure that somebody feels comfortable so that as a leader, what you can do is to ensure that you’re going to be able to present your points of view in a relatively calm way. And that it’s going to be more difficult for them to react defensively, because there’s not this huge bulk between us, there’s not this barrier between us What there is, is a space of conversation, it’s not a space of me saying to somebody, you must do this. It’s a space, a shared space, where we work together, we co construct something, even if behind all of this, what I’m trying to do is to get them to do something they don’t really want to do, it’s necessarily going to be a lot easier for them to accept that, then if I have this huge barrier between me and them, and me telling them as the commander in chief, you have got to do this. So I mean, there is a sense in which you’re right. I mean, we know the aromatherapy, the easy chairs, the tea, these are all things to make us as individuals feel more comfortable. But there is a kind of strategy here in terms of the way that we react to other people. And in fact, the way we organize even our personal space is always going to involve sort of thinking about its impact upon the people who may end up in that space, who may end up sharing that space with us.
Nadine Powrie 17:14
So in effect, what you are saying is that, whether it is our personal space, or whether it is our workspace, it influences our communication. When Yeah, and and also, I would add that it’s also shaping our nonverbal communication. And I want to say something about how I associate space, we wheeze with memory and experience. Because and it’s interesting, you mentioned, having some conversation and sometimes some difficult conversation, when you have a leader, you do have difficult conversation, or also the word difficult makes it even more difficult. But let’s back it out. We’re having a lot of conversations when we are a leader. And I think it’s important for people to have the memory of a space where a conversation can have good outcomes, in my opinion. You know, when you’re a leader, let’s try to make every conversation worthwhile, where people don’t leave your office feeling inadequate. And you mentioned co constructing. So how can we use our space to, to some extent to construct memories and positive memories where people will want to come back again, because they know that it’s a safe space, they know that they can share opinions, point of views, ideas. It can be a space where you could construct and where it’s okay to have a conversation and to remember that in that specific office, you’ve had many eureka moments, many moments where you have actually moved forward your organization’s I think that’s really important. And it’s also important to share experience of a space which is associated with memory to some extent. But sometimes experiences in the present. You know, we are sharing a space like yesterday for example, I had the VIP day in London, and near the Bank of England I used an organization called and meetings and it’s not a space that I built myself so I borrowed the space, but every time I go into that space for me because I keep using that same room called the studio I am building some great Memories. Because every VIP day is different. Every conversation is amazing. So therefore, every time I go into that space, I feel really happy fears, I know, it’s almost predictable, I know, we’re going to have a great time, we’re going to be solving complex problem. And I know that at the end of the day, my client is going to leave feeling that they’ve achieved, you know, the goals that that set up for the day. So I think for me, the Association of a space with memory and with experience is really important because as leaders, we are creating memories in other people’s head. And we are shaping those memories. And we are shaping their experience of them coming into our space.
And hence the importance of the senses to go back to the use of aromatherapy, for example, or that those pink kind rages be behind you. There’s a sense in which remembering, remembering a color or remembering a perfume or indeed tasting something in a sense of polishes time and this is the one of the one of the great 20th century authors Muhsin post, his his famous example of dipping a Madeleine a little sponge cake into, into his tea, suddenly reminded him of his of his childhood. And he realized that, in fact, the sensors can break down this, this sense of time, so that you have a sense of a sense of creating a space, which is almost a non space, because it’s a space, which is built with time, rather than the actual spaces that you and I are currently in, or the or whoever is listening into us today, may happen to be in is that sense that actually a space is a relatively abstract concept. I mean, we’ve been talking about, you know, the color of the walls, we’ve been talking about the things that are inside there, but the space can also be a space in your head, a space of the imagination, a space of creativity, indeed,
Nadine Powrie 22:16
and this space of innovation, a space of inspiration, a space of a solving complex problems as well, which is, in a way, a space can shape the best ideas that we we have. And we’re in control of that, even though even though we may not choose our office, you know, in the end, you’re given an office. And we’ve not talked either about the online space, which actually has changed significantly, the way we perceive space, because before copied, we all were working in spaces that were you know, rectangles, square and all of that, whereas now we’re on, we’re on we’re online. So in a way, one could argue, by watching me like you do now feel you’re not in my space, because there is this barrier of the computer, even though we are you and I were actually in the same apartment today. Nobody would know that. You and I, we know that. And we’ve declared it to the well now so everybody knows, but nobody knows that you are in effect, always in different spaces, because you’re online. So you never come into my space. And some people would argue why it’s very good, fina Nadine talking about space that, you know, enhance creativity and innovation and all of those kinds of things. But actually doing online is much more difficult. Because you’re in, you’re losing that human touch you’ve just mentioned feel, you know, making people cup of coffee cup of tea, you know, I’ve just mentioned aromatherapy so none of that is present when we are online. And it may be that the online space even though you know we’re in a room together. This is called the NP consultancy room on stream yard, which is what we’re using to do our LinkedIn live is actually just a virtual room in which you are because you’re online with me, but actually physically, you’re not with me. And then
I only see half of you that’s the other interesting thing, which obviously people have mentioned a lot and they’ve been lots of jokes about it as well the online space. What you see is a kind of you see from here to here, and the jokes of often been well, what on earth are they wearing, because it could be all sorts of things. I’m not going to tell you what I’m wearing underneath. But there’s a sense in which what we’re missing is something really important for a leader, which makes online meetings that much more difficult. It’s this sense of presence that you’ve just mentioned. But it’s also all of the kind of, how could I put this the gestures, you know, the crossing of the legs, the shifting in the chair that allows you to see that somebody is either interested or appalled by the idea that you’ve just suggested to them. So there’s a sense in which online spaces are more abstract, yes, they’re virtual, they’re more abstract. And they don’t allow you to get close to the person that you are having a conversation with. That, I think is one of the more difficult aspects of online, particularly in large meetings, people can just switch off in ways that it would be much more difficult for them to do if they were in a relatively small ish meeting and room together.
Nadine Powrie 26:10
Yeah, and, and also, as you are talking, I’m thinking about movements. Because you know, when we’re in a room, and we’re all meeting together, you kind of turn your head to get people. And, you know, sometimes you look through the window, you can see the blue sky. So you have, you could argue some element of distraction, to then refocus you on what’s being said. Whereas here, you’re just staring at a screen and kind of nothing else, I could look at the window, but it would be really rude if I was doing that, because you are just sitting in front of me. So to some extent, having a an online screen, could, could be that there are less distractions to kind of give your brain a little bit of a rest, you’re just staring at something and just what it is. And I will never be into your space, and you will never be into my space. And the question is, how can we change that so that there is still that notion of we’re sharing a common space? And what are the habits that we can develop? Because let’s face it, almost all organizations I’m working with and I actually I think I should say all organizations that we are working with in terms of NP consultancy. Everybody’s doing hybrid, they’re working from home, and they’re working from their duty offices, Nobody that I know, is having to work five days in the office. So we’re still managing the working online. And I think this is going to stay for a long time, if not forever, because actually, there are a lot of advantages to work online. So it’s how can we use the space to create a space where, okay, it’s safe, but great. How can we make it safer? How can we make it more inspiring, you know, how can we bring that human touch whereby people feel that even though it is a virtual space? It’s kind of very close to being a space where we could potentially be physically together in that space? I hope I’m making sense here. And it’s what are the habits we could develop?
I think it’s really difficult. Because, yes, there are advantages, as you say, to this kind of virtual meeting. I mean, so one of the advantages, it seems to me is inclusivity. I mean, it depends what we mean by inclusivity. But what we’ve discovered at the university, for example, is that you get better attendance at meetings, because people are at home, they don’t have to commute to come for the meeting. So they’re quite happy to join the meeting. So in a sense, it’s more inclusive and potentially more democratic. The other advantage, which is also a disadvantage, curiously enough, is that it’s a whole issue of Turn taking is much more difficult to actually interrupt somebody when you’re talking to them online. I don’t quite know why that is. But it’s partly to do with the sound, the sound quality, I think, whereas if you’re in, if you’re in a meeting around a table, you can do all sorts of things to indicate that what you want to do is to not necessarily interrupt but that you have something to say and you raise your hand. You can do that online of course as well. But when you’re in a meeting room, what you can also do is to start coughing a bit or or raising your eyebrows, all of which you could do online, and yet people don’t actually do that. So there’s a sense of, I think the word I’m looking for is not so much barriers but it’s it’s something like boundaries that there out there, when we’re talking about personal spaces or indeed workspaces, what we’re talking about is boundaries. You know, the famous, the famous issue of the corridor conversation, you can’t have a corridor conversation by the coffee machine, if you’re, if you’re doing this kind of thing. And yet, that corridor conversation in that kind of liminal sort of neutral space allows people to come together in ways that virtual spaces simply don’t. So there are pros and cons. Yeah, more democratic, more inclusive. But, you know, it imposes hard boundaries, the screen is there as a kind of boundary between you and the other person. And it’s a screen in both senses of the word, it screens that person from you, because you can’t see the whole of them, you can’t see the way that they move below what you’re seeing me do here, you don’t get a sense of presence in quite the same way that you would do if you were in that corridor conversation, or even in the slightly minimalist rooms that we were talking about earlier on.
Nadine Powrie 31:02
So a personal face can be interpersonal, as you’ve just described it, but I think it it should be also an interrupt intrapersonal. One. And I often talk about my bubble, and you will know that. And I think anybody who’s worked with me, and actually my colleagues still talk about oh, yes, when you know, you were talking to us about the bubble. And the bubble is a space for you, as a leader, where you replenish? You guys are you’re thinking you’re creative, you are doing your strategic thinking for your next meetings, your next ideas, your next point of view, and all of that. And I think it’s really important at a time where many leaders are spending their days, having zoom meetings and teams meetings. So being on online, space, nonstop, one meeting after the other, and having no time to have their own personal space be physical, if they’re at home, at least, you know, they can be in a room. Or if they’re in the office, they can go and walk in the corridor, for example. But it’s the balance of having that personal space where it’s only you and nobody else, whether it’s online, or whether it is physical, and having an online and physical space where you are with other people, because you’re having conversations, informal, or formal conversations in meetings. I think, for me, that balance is really important. And another thing that I’ve thought of, in the context of online space, is that I’ve never looked at myself so much, because I can see myself right now. And we’ve been speaking for about 33 minutes now. So far, for the past 33 minutes, I have watch myself. And this is something that when you in, in a space and in a physical space, you don’t look at yourself, because you look at other people. And it feels like the effect of mirror of watching myself kind of, you know, move talk with my mimics and actually makes me perhaps become a lot more critical. Have the little habits that I’ve got that I think I can be quite annoying. When I when I speak and, you know, using my hands as as as I do, where I’m not aware of that when I’m present in a physical space, because I don’t have that mirror
effect. Yeah. So I mean, basically, when you’re online, you’re you’re, you’re looking at yourself all the time. And there’s a sense in which that prevents you from getting close to the person that you’re speaking to. And I was just thinking about the the metaphor of the bubble, actually. And just thinking that maybe there’s something here about a hard bubble and a soft bubble. No, the hard bubble is the kind of bubble that we’re looking at in this screen. I mean, it’s hard because we’re each in each and all spaces. They happen to be in the same larger bubble, which is our apartment, but nonetheless, they’re, they’re hard. They’re hard and they prevent us from actually engaging fully with each other because we’re in separate in separate spaces with real walls between us. And then there’s this screen as I was saying earlier on which is cutting us off from each other. So that would be the hard bubble. What would be the soft bubble? The soft bubble is the bubble where somebody can enter into it at any time. There you are. You’re having a nice quiet think by the coffee machine. Jean, that’s your bubble. And then suddenly somebody comes along. And just like a child, you know, bursting a bubble, you lose that bubble because you have to engage and create a new bubble, which itself can then because it’s soft, because it’s open, can then suddenly pop and disappear. And you’re there with that other person in what isn’t an ever fluctuating sort of closeness with either one, two or more people in a conversation. So I think that the idea of the hard and soft bubble is when I need to think a bit more about actually, because it’s a really useful metaphor, for the way in which we think we have a personal space. But in fact, personal spaces, like we said a little while ago always going to be interpersonal, because if you’re in your bubble, you’re actually excluding other people. If you think I don’t want this person or that person to be in my space, you’re thinking about other people. When you’re in a bubble with somebody else in the conversation, you’re thinking, Well, I hope, I hope my I hope my colleague doesn’t knock on the door, I hope the phone doesn’t ring because I need to engage with this person in a bubble that we’ve created. So there’s a sense in which you’re even when you’re by yourself, you’re always with other people, is the point I’m making, it’s absolutely impossible to be entirely by yourself. And what makes a virtual conversation like this really interesting is that you’re pushed to thinking about yourself much more than you would normally do. Because you see yourself you see as you say, your your the things that you do you know, the mannerisms that you have, and you’re thinking to yourself, is that how other people see me? Which you might be thinking, even if you were in a room with them? How do they actually see me? are they reacting in the right way to the suggestions that I’m making to push our organization forwards or whatever it may happen to be. But the point to come back to it, and maybe we can end on this is that personal space? Actually, you know, we’re doing this series on personal things going personal getting personal, actually, we’re never entirely by ourselves. We’re always with other people, even when we’re by ourselves.
Nadine Powrie 37:12
That’s a very nice ending, thank you feel, I just just say that rotti me somebody that we know very well, and has just commented on rotting me said, essays, a really interesting and perhaps little discussed topic.
Yep. I used to work with Rotom in the University of Surrey, and he has gone on to great things.
Nadine Powrie 37:37
Yes, and Rotimi works at the University of Oxford. So hello, Rotimi, it’s nice to see your comment. And actually, we might go back to doing another LinkedIn live as part two of space, because one of the thing we didn’t quite talk about was open plan space. And it may be something that we will want to talk again, because May many organizations had created open plan space before COVID. So we have open plan. space, we have offices space, we have personal space, at home, we have online spaces, we have lots of spaces that actually shape us in a way as who we are as a reader, but we must never forget that ultimately, we can shape that space as well, by our presence and by who we are ourselves and how we want to be as, as a leader, you know, the kind of aura that we all have, when we when we come into a room, I believe very strongly that we can have that even even online. So thank you very much feel for this first LinkedIn live together, we plan to 20 minutes, we’ve done nearly 40 minutes. As I said, we like talking and something to share with anybody who has listened to us, we do have a very nice prompt, very nice visual prompt to help you think about how you are using your personal space. And if you are interested in having a copy of that if you just put your your email address in in the comments of a yes, and we will DM that prompt sheet to you as soon as we finish our LinkedIn live. And another announcement to make is that on the eighth of September, we are going to be doing a webinar on something that is very close to our our hearts on something that you and I feel I’ve worked on for quite a long time now, which is that we’ve looked at the 30 most successful leaders around the world and we’ve looked at what they are doing to be successful and we’re going to have a webinar to share share our findings and our research on the eighth of September at four o’clock London time. So obviously more about it as we as we go in the next few weeks, but we’re very excited about sharing that with with the whole world. So thank you very much feel for home being with me on this first LinkedIn life together. And hopefully, we will do another LinkedIn life together in a fortnight.
Thanks. Thank you everybody for listening. Thank you