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LinkedIn Live The importance of visibility for career progression

Ten take-aways from this session:

  1. Be comfortable in saying the good things you do
  2. Showcase your talent
  3. Talk about things that don’t go as well
  4. Don’t gloss over the struggles, talk about them
  5. Know your strengths and always go back to them
  6. You don’t always need an audience
  7. There are always other options out there
  8. Celebrate the success of your teams
  9. Feedback can help you with visibility
  10. Not everyone can do what you do

***The following transcript has been automatically generated and is presented here unchecked***


LinkedIn Live The importance of visibility for career progre…

Thu, 8/18 7:44PM • 58:45


people, visibility, self promotion, gemma, visible, strengths, talking, nikki, women, nadine, thinking, question, intention, promote, terms, bit, brilliant, confidence, career progression, team


Nadine Powrie


Nadine Powrie  00:01

I always start by saying and we are live. A very good evening to everybody who is going to be listening to us today. I’m Nadine Powrie, Executive and leadership coach and workplace mediator.



I’m Jim Musto. Thank you for inviting me to join you all today. And I am a self promotion expert, and I work with women to raise their visibility.



I’m Nicky, Jason, very nice to be on the call today. And I am a leadership coach and business mentor after having worked for too many years in the charity sector.



Hi, I’m Jenny Lynn. I’m a facilitator. And I do quite a lot in terms of leadership development, both in terms of delivering programs and also writing them.



Hi, there. I’m John Danes. I’m an education consultant do a bit of inspection, bit of school improvement. And I’ve I like to say one or two other bits and pieces. Good to be here. Thanks for joining us, Nikki and Gemma.


Nadine Powrie  01:00

Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much. And again, Gemma for for joining us. And I’m just going to say a few words about the why you’re here, because you’ve got in common that you’ve kind of changed Korea. So Gemma, you were a probation officer and Nikki, you were the finance director of a very well known charity. And at some point in your career, you’ve changed career and you’re now working for yourself. And you’ve had to deal with visibility, both of you. And I have to declare that Gemma actually has been my coach. And I engage Gemma to challenge me on visibility. And I have to say I had one of the best hour in my life in terms of being challenged in a really nice way, and also being elevated. So if I’m doing those LinkedIn live, and it took some time for me to do them, I think I have to sign Gemma for for doing that. So thank you very much, Gemma. Yeah, thank you. Yes. And Nikki, Nikki, you’re very special, because we met when we did our training with ICF. And Tracy Sinclair, who was our teacher coach, when we both changed Korea at the same time, roughly. So so that’s kind of the why you’re the both of you, you are here with us today. And we are going to be talking about visibility. And I guess the first question I want to ask is, What does visibility mean?



Great question. Yeah. Great question. And, and I think it means different things to different people. But for me, and because I often talk about visibility quite a lot. As you probably know, for me, it’s about raising your profile. And so people know who you are and what you stand for. I think for me, visibility’s is on so many different levels. You can do it in different ways. But it’s about being your authentic self, and finding what that is what your thing is really to be visible to get across who you are. So that’s how I see it anyway.



Yeah, and it was a really good question to focus on thinking coming into this session, because I reflected on the fact that I, I think when I was head of finance, and finance director, I was really good at being visible about some things that were really important to me, in particular, being a learning leader. So telling people when I’ve done things wrong, and learning from that, and then growing from that. And what I realized, now looking back is that I wasn’t so good at being visible about the successes of the team, and what the team was actually doing, and why the team was really valuable to the organization. And as a result, the team suffered, I think, because they came to a time when we had to save money, and we had to cut roles. And I felt there was a feeling of we don’t really know what the finance team does. So I’m sure we can lose a few of them. And suddenly, I have my back to the wall trying to trying to explain what my team did and how valuable they were. So this is so important to sort of think about being visible before you’re in that situation. And, you know, being able to be sort of comfortable and confident about saying what the good things you do as well as the learnings and the mistakes that you’re making.



So was that was that because you’re naturally self facing Nikki that you chose to become visible? I mean, obviously, I guess it wasn’t kind of a you probably didn’t think think that you didn’t realize you’re making that choice, but what you’ve just said that was that you chose to be the times you were visible. But when you were almost apologizing for things that have happened. Did I understand that right?



Yeah. And that’s might not be correct. That’s but that’s That’s the sort of leaning that I’m thinking. I think it’s because I value learning so much and developing. And that’s one of my personal values. So I think that’s perhaps, what was coming out or, you know, more than the other



way to where I was going with that. I mean, there’s there’s nothing wrong with that as such, as long as it’s balanced, maybe so that you get it. Gemma, would you say that? That’s, yeah. Because there’s an honesty and integrity. And an authenticity was were abused already behind? Yeah. Yeah,



absolutely. I would agree with that. Because I think you’re not alone with that. Nikki, there’s so many people. I mean, when I work with women, and I work with companies that this is one of the things that comes up is being able to really showcase your talent and, and own your expertise and talk about yourself. I mean, so many people tell me, I can’t talk about myself, it just feels so uncomfortable. And so you’re not alone with that at all. But being able to talk about the things that don’t go as well is powerful. And not a lot of people can do that either. And they seem to gloss over that. And then just present the finished article or ever and go Tada, and nobody sees the struggle or the determination that you’ve been through either. So yeah, it’s really interesting.


Nadine Powrie  06:17

So how do we do that? Then Gemma, I mean, you know, you said at the very beginning, it’s, it’s about being your authentic self. Right. And I think it’s easy to say, but actually, quite hard to do. So how, how can we do that?



I think the first thing to do really is what I always talk about is going back to your strengths. And I think with social media, and everything is just in our face now. And also with remote work in visibility is a lot online, but we see other people doing it. And we think we have to do it like that. And I don’t think we don’t have to we have to be ourselves. But sometimes we don’t always spend enough time figuring out who we are, and what our strengths are and focusing on that. And really finding a way that you can be visible in your own way that feels comfortable. It can be fun. So many people say it’s, oh, it’s awful. I don’t want to be out there. I don’t want people to see what I’m what I’m doing. But actually, it can be quite fun to share. It’s not all, it’s not always talking about yourself. There’s different levels to self promotion and visibility. But I think starting with strengths is really important.



And I think as managers, we can sort of celebrate the success of our teams, not necessarily ourselves. And actually one of my colleagues at Amnesty. He’s used to send out monthly emails to the whole management team saying what his team had done that month. And you know how, and that was really great because he was bigging up his team. And, you know, what made us all sort of see what we might not have seen otherwise. Yeah.



And I talked about that a lot actually comes up in some of the training I do, because what I find with working with women is that they’re very good at that as well. Talking about the way and the team, and sometimes they miss out the eye and what they did as well. And I think it’s trying to get that balance thing, like John said, it is getting that balance between talking about what you’ve done, what you’ve achieved, and what everybody’s achieved as a team. It’s really important. Yeah.



And we’re all involved in various ways in terms of developing leaders. And nowhere, I’ve delivered a number of different leadership programs for different organizations aimed at different levels. And nowhere has there been anything about visibility. And I think it’s what you’re saying is really interesting, but we’re actually talking almost about a maturity, that the people you’re talking about are already there in business doing what they’re doing. And what I’m thinking of is how can we go further back? And I’m thinking about, actually students, people in schools, students, and then as as a leadership program, so I’m just muddling all the things up at once. But I think this needs to start way back, doesn’t it? It’s harder for us because we’ve been around a long time. And we use the culture where visibility is a bit of a challenge for us, but how can we inspire our youth, our young leaders coming up to have that sort of confidence to be more visible? Sorry, that was a really long



there was a question buried in there.



Did you get it? For me, and I see this I’ve got two children myself, and I see ways that they’re asked to kind of practice this visibility, so maybe presenting something to the class or whatever that could be, but it’s always seems to be in the same ways. As a proud introvert myself. My son is very much like me, actually. I. So when he’s asked to do things like that, I really want to encourage him to do it. But sometimes it doesn’t feel natural for him. And I just wish there was different way. So I remember being at a parents evening, and the teacher said to me, I just wish is brilliant. Everything’s amazing. You know, he’s great at math, but I just wish that he would put his hand up more and answer the question, because I know that he knows the answer. And I thought, well, he knows the answer, but he doesn’t want to put his hand up on it. It’s really interesting. And I find this fascinating. So it’s a great point, Jenny, about how we need to go back and look at where we can start this development of the visibility and interest in that it was not involved in the leadership development team.



Not at all, not at all. And it’s making me think that going forward, this is something I need to know more about, because this is a relatively new concept, since we’ve been talking to you. And I think that that’s really important that if we’re delivering programs for middle leaders, or for senior leaders, then that it needs to be a recognition that this is a concept, because it wasn’t till I read your paper, that actually I could put a lot of building blocks from my past into perspective, in that perhaps, you know, we were too visible or we weren’t visible enough, but we didn’t think about visibility as a concept. Yeah,



I guess it’s, I’ve attached that term to it. But I guess it covers things like reputation, network, your image, what you stand for, it covers a lot of things that are probably within leadership development anyway, it’s just not identifying the village,



maybe. But I think it’d be really powerful to have it as identified like that. I think that going forward, and certainly, I should get it, I should perhaps, queue up in our chats from time.



I think I think schools are getting, you know, so much better than they were when all those millions of years ago when we were at school. And it reminds me of the time when my son came home from school about the age of seven. And he was really very good at school, he loved school, he loved all the subjects, he found it all very easy. And I remember him coming home and saying, I’ve got this homework, and it’s too hard. I can’t do it. And I said, What is it? Let’s have a look. And it was, you know, what are you good at? What do you enjoy doing? draw some pictures of you doing things that you’re good at? And you know, it was really hard. So, and it was great that they were starting at the age of seven, encouraging them to engage with those questions.



And even now I see women, you know, when I say what are your top three strengths? It’s like, Well, friends, difficult questions to answer, if we don’t create that time to think about it, and really, and keep going back to it as well. And not just doing it as a tick box. But actually being something that’s active and part of who you are. When you when you bring to work, whatever you bring in.



People won’t certainly if you don’t recognize your own strengths, and other people aren’t going to other. So you know, I mean, I wouldn’t be able to say what my three strengths are straight off? I’d have to think about that. Why should I have to think about I should know, and it should be sort of in front of my mind. So the bank?



Yeah. And you know, there’s powerful thing to do is if you really struggle with that, and I know a lot of people do is to maybe reach out to colleagues, past colleagues or people you work with and ask them what they think your top three strengths, and it can be really inspiring, actually, quite a shock. Like, wow, I’m seeing like,


Nadine Powrie  13:34

it’s a very Yeah, it’s a very good exercise to do, actually, because there is also people’s perception, sometimes you think you’ve got some strengths. And actually, when you ask people, they come up with very different perspectives that are opening your your mind to some extent. And that is that it’s elevating the Oh, I could do that and not sort of it. So it’s also about how you are being perceived by people. You’ve done a piece of work Gemma on on feedback, and how can feedback help you to some extent with your visibility. And I think it’s so important that we, you know, we give feedback with permission to people so that they’re not stuck in a row, labeling themselves with those three trends that they can grow and expand and elevate. I think that’s really important.



Yeah, I love that. And it’s important with coaching as well. I mean, I know Nikki’s a coach, advocate, well, we’re all involved in and that’s, that’s a great place to do that work, isn’t it to really focus in on what your strengths are, but what the things that you don’t know about yourself that you should be focusing on and using to your advantage, especially in terms of visibility. Yeah,



that some people find it easier to think about their strengths is to think of something that they have had that’s been a success. Um, so you know, when clients tell me something that’s been a success, it’s about then saying, so what? What are the strengths that you used that achieved that success? And, and it’s, you know, so, so great to watch people sort of thinking, oh, oh, well, so and so did this. And that’s why I was successful. Well, what did you actually



play? Sometimes? Yeah, I think we underplay ourselves so much as well. And, and it’s almost like, it’s like, we take it for granted and become a bit complacent. Because we’ve done something for so long, that it becomes part of who we are. And we can say, oh, anyone can do that. Or, you know, you know, why should I get paid for doing that? Because it’s come so easy to me. But it’s part of who you are, and those skills and experience that you bring to the table. And I think we forget that we just seem to forget that sometimes.



But maybe you’re when you’re new, you’re really good at recognizing that. Because you’re very good at recognizing the three of us talk a lot about all sorts of things. And one of the things that that comes from Dean always is that we need to recognize the depth and the breadth of our expertise, in that we might come to the table and do something that’s, that’s easy. I can’t remember it was we talked about last week. And I said, Well, that’s easy, I can do that very quickly. And you pulled me up and said, Yes, you can do that very quickly. Because it’s something you’re good at something you’ve been doing for a long time, but don’t undervalue what it is you do. And that’s really resonated with me. Because you do take things for granted. If you can do something really easily. You don’t necessarily see it as a strength or a skill, because it isn’t difficult. And you kind of think that it should be it’s going to be a strength, if that makes sense. Yeah.



Quickly. Could we with a sort of slight degree of trepidation? Could we explore the the male female aspect of this? Because? I don’t? So I don’t know. We know very well, I don’t know. So let’s start there. But all the things that you’re saying would apply to me? So I don’t know is so are you? Are you focusing on raising the visibility, visibility, visibility of women? Because that there is a special need for women? Or you? Or is that just where you feel comfortable to do? So?



For me, I guess it’s it’s part of the work that I love to do. Anyway, as a feminist, I’m always about being behind women and all those kinds of initiatives and having more women around the decision making table for all women represented. Yeah, which is definitely needed. Yeah, yeah, it’s definitely needed. But you know, decrease in that gender pay gap, which is what I’m really passionate about. So that’s why I do focus my work on women. When I did my research, I did include men, because I was interested in the difference in genders. And I know, there’s not just two genders, but you know, non binary, and across the board. And it was really interesting, because what came up was that both men and women who completed the participate in the survey, were both feeling uncomfortable, the majority is, I think it’s about 86%. Were both feeling uncomfortable or awkward around self promotion and wanting to avoid it, the difference what came through was that men would do it anyway. Now, I’d be really interested to get your feedback down. And this might not everyone’s different, obviously, you know, quite general, and it’s specific to the people that get involved. But that was really fascinating to me. And I think I’d love to explore that further. When I’m working for men to see, you know, if it’s something that they don’t want to do, but they do it anyway, because they know that they’re gonna get results from it. I mean, what’s your experience?



Okay. Well, first of all, I think that’ll be fascinating, because I think one of the dangers of of putting it into a women’s bucket is that men go Oh, will, you know, I’m not interested in that. And actually, if I’m honest, that was probably my first first reaction when I first but I mean, this is fascinating. So my, my Yeah, and I think it’s definitely worth exploring from a male perspective as well. So my, my entirely personal view would be that. Yeah, I feel uncomfortable about that. But in certain roles, it was clearly part of the role. And so I felt that I wouldn’t be able to do the role effectively, if I didn’t do that. I mean, yeah, so I kind of got over it, which I think is what is what you said. But I think a key thing for me. And I really, I really feel a tension here between self promotion. I’m big on humility. If you asked me what I think the most important aspect of it Nadine smiling away, I’ll keep mentioning this. But I think no, I think humility is the most important aspect of being an effective leader. And, you know, if you define humility as not of thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less, I think that’s quite a useful way, I perceive a little. So for me a bit of a tension within the within the self promotion thing I don’t. So when I was making myself visible, it’s because I needed to because of the role I was in, I wanted to promote the school, and what we did, and the students and the staff, and the way the so one of the one of the schools I was head of was a was a special school, residential, special school. So we had therapy staff, as well as teaching staff, we had nursing staff. And so I promoted all those, it wasn’t a self. But as does that, I don’t know if that’s any.



absolutely makes sense. And I see and I see self promotion, very closely linked to self advocacy. So being so feel unable to speak up. So when you speak, you know, on other people’s behalf as to you know, that a fact I see that all is visibility, really, you’re you’re in a position where you can a privileged position sometimes to be able to then advocate for other people. But yeah, no, I’m a see, I can see the the almost tension between it and I think sometimes self promotion gets called a dirty word. And when I when I start initially working with people around it, who want to work on their career progression and their visibility and raise their profile, they’ll say, you know, I don’t want to be arrogant, because that’s what they associate with, because they see that kind of behavior. And then yes, that impacts on how we feel, because ultimately, we care about what people think of us and fit in and we want to belong. So to do something else that maybe is looked at as arrogant and is just totally off putting. So I think term as well can be quite off putting in in itself, which is why I use that to cause a little bit of, you know.



A couple of, we’ve got a couple of observations here from people coming in. Natalie, who came on few weeks ago has come in and say, I’m really interested in this topic. I’ve seen many jobs that I don’t necessarily have all the criteria, and people have said, it’d be a man who’d go for it. Interesting that men would more commonly do it anyway. And I hope that more women feel they should give things that go because there’s nothing to lose. And that’s Natalie. And then Anna says, well done jam picking yourself less rather than thinking less of yourself.


Nadine Powrie  22:35

Oh, that’s a good quote. Yeah, that’s a very good, really good.



It’s not I’d like to say that was me who invented like it was Tim Keller, I can’t remember where I came from. Okay.



Do you think there’s a nationality thing here as well. And I don’t know whether Nadine has got a view on this being bilingual. But the British people are naturally self effacing. All we have a reputation for being self effacing. Whereas you might think an American might actually have quite a different view to self promotion, and seem to be more at ease with this. And I don’t know, Nadine, were French people come within that. But I’m wondering, is this particularly a British issue? Or do British people have more of an issue with visibility than other nationalities?



Great question.


Nadine Powrie  23:28

Yeah, I don’t think it’s just cultural of nationality. I think it’s a mixture of culture, nationality, gender, generation. I have been thinking actually about it. And, you know, I’m 54. I don’t think in the same way as the millennials, we had them a few weeks ago as generation Zed. And what seems to be a barrier for me as a French national living in England for my visibility isn’t at all a barrier for my children who are bilingual, but who belongs to generation Zed and millennials. So for me, personally, I think it’s more generation than nationalities. I also think that it depends how long you’ve lived in the country. I’ve lived in England since 1989. So for me I am quite English. So I don’t see the nationality as a as the main driver. I see. Is generation



personality there’s got to be a massive personality


Nadine Powrie  24:38

and confidence confidence as well. I mean, you know when Gemma Allah, we had our session, I probably had a massive lack of confidence, which is a complete contradiction, because I was a head teacher. You know, you would think yeah, and as the head teacher, I’ve no problem in speaking to people and being on stage it’s fine. But, but talking About you, and you know your visibility. So forget about the team just talking about you. That’s something else actually.



It kind of took the Team D personalizes it, doesn’t it because you, you can talk it more objectively about what your team has achieved, because it’s not seen as bigging yourself up because it’s bigging other people up. So that sort of depersonalization, on objectivity that perhaps makes that easier.


Nadine Powrie  25:28

And you can hide, you can hide behind the team. And yeah, it can be quite convenient to hide behind the team.



So that’s what I did. For a long time, you know, I hid behind my own team, really. And I convinced myself I was better behind the scenes. Everyone else do those other things and visibility. So yeah, I’ve been there. And I know what it’s like, and it’s not easy to be able to start doing it. But I think it’s finding your own way and not not feeling that fake it till you make it kind of thing. I just don’t agree with that. You know, you’ve got to find your own way to do things. Yeah,



I think it’s also about accepting and this were the words from your white paper Jama that I really loved. But when it comes to progress, visibility counts. Because when you’re thinking about who to promote, you can’t promote somebody for skills that you don’t know they’ve got, or strengths that you don’t know they have. So, and it is quite hard to come to terms with for a lot of people. So it’s about trying to stay in that.



Yeah, I think I think there’s that dual responsibility as well. So whereas there’s companies and cultures and, you know, managers that need to have the skills to be able to get draw that out of people, you know, there’s also the individual responsibility of being able to say, you know, own it, and go, This is who I am, this is what I can do. And when both work together, well, then magic because everybody knows how everyone else is. And then the best people the right people get the promotions.



Yeah, just picking up on that point that Nikki said, Emma has come in, saying self promotion, and recognizing individual exceptional skills can be made more difficult when those talents are not discussed or praised openly. Which is exactly what you were saying Nikki, wasn’t it a role modeling of leadership, encouraging, highlighting, encouraging, highlighting and celebration of talents throughout boosts confidence, and therefore visibility? And then Sarah is asking, can you tell us more about the benefits that self promotion can bring?



Oh, yeah, she want me to take that. Yes, yes.


Nadine Powrie  27:37

Can I just say, Sarah, Sarah works for creative agency called Thursday. And she’s got an amazing boss called Simon Harmer. And he went, he came on my podcast. So yes, so Yeah. Brilliant, brilliant, creative agency. Who can answer the question, Who am I?



Benefits of self promotion? Yeah. Oh, well, the huge, and I guess, for me, so it depends on what you want. And I think everybody should start with figuring out what they really want. And I talk in terms of career progression. And that, you know, it doesn’t always mean a pay rise in a promotion. It’s not always about that. It’s about opportunities and developing yourself. career progression in development is all those things, isn’t it? So it depends on what you want. But I think from just to be general, I mean, self promotion can get you. You can open doors, get different opportunities by being visible. Networking is a huge part of being visible, I think and self promotion, being able to, to feel comfortable introducing yourself, you know, that’s not easy for a lot of people and can put them off networking. And so benefits to meeting new people building relationships with key stakeholders, being able to talk about yourself. And then the results on that app, you know, the opportunities, the new jobs, the new roles, more responsibility, and meeting more people and that connection, I think those are the biggest benefits that I say, but there’ll be loads more as well.


Nadine Powrie  29:14

Jenny, pick up more questions.



Yes. Yes. Sara’s just thank you for the shout out first of all, then there’s a LinkedIn user. I’m not sure who that is. Because there’s not a name with it. Do you think there’s also too much self promotion? I find there’s a fine line between confidence and arrogance. And it’s about finding that line with individuals.



Yeah, absolutely. I think there isn’t like I was saying before that when we see a lot of it and if it’s, it depends how it’s done. And you know, I don’t want to pull down people who are visible because they’re doing it right and I can and it’s almost reminds me of when my children say I’m really good at that are the kind of showing off to the friends and I’m and I can feel myself wanting to say oh, no, we don’t want to don’t show off. I don’t think No I can’t say that I need to stop because This is what we told all the time that you know, talking about yourself is not is arrogant. It depends how you do it, there is a fine line, I agree. And I think it comes back to being authentic. And the intention behind the self promotion. So if you have more of an impact and help others, then brilliant, you know, if it’s self serving to make money and take that off, people who’ve not got it or whatever the sick circumstances, then it’s different.


Nadine Powrie  30:26

I was I was always a quite uncomfortable on LinkedIn, putting out a testimonial. For me. I always felt arrogant when I was doing them because I stood well, you know, Will? Will? What will people think first of all, okay, what am I trying to prove to people because I’ve got a testimonial. Why, why am I doing that? Why do I want people to know about the testimonial, and it took some time, actually, for me to come to peace with you know, it’s okay to be testimonial. And ultimately, it’s what does it do to you? And, you know, to the people who are going to be reading it, but I remember having some quite lengthy discussion about what’s the point of doing that? Is it? Is it at that point that you’re arrogant? Because who are you doing that for? A lot of people putting testimonials on



LinkedIn? Yeah. And what is the point? What is the intention? I mean, if your intention is to share amazing results that somebody else has got? And yes, they’ve worked with you brilliant, but that person, you’re celebrating them, which is I tend to do that a lot, because I love shouting out about incredible women and men. But yeah, I think it’s about the intention and the purpose behind it. And that’s the bit. If you can get really clear on that, then I think there’s a different feel about it. Yeah,



I think the intention is absolutely crucial. I mean, I wouldn’t have used that word, because I hadn’t thought about it, but it’s brilliant, that you have actually, it’s almost like, you know, knowing knowing where someone’s heart is, you can you can forget, you can forgive someone for getting something wrong. If you know that their heart is in the right place and their intentions were. I want to say, well, I don’t want to say honorable, but I can’t think well, you know, I mean honorable but you know, also in the right place. So the attention, I think that’s a really key point, actually. And actually, that’s in a word made me feel a lot more comfortable about the whole idea of self promotion.



I think it’s, you know, you can see it with women who want to go for the next position, or the next job or the next opportunity. And, you know, I’m saying you’ve got to talk about yourself, how you going to sell yourself, ultimately, that’s what it is. But then the reasons why look at the intention, what’s the purpose, because they want to do more good. They want to get into that position have their impact in the company, on customers, ultimately, in the world.



Next, just made is is resonating with exactly what I was thinking. And it’s something that that I that that was very apparent at school, as I was teaching was that. And it’s often a boy, actually. So maybe this is a bit more of a male theme. Female thing often you get in boys arrogance based on ignorance. Yeah, so they’ll come out and say something completely ridiculous. And it’s not based on anything at all. And and next point is that if if if the, if the vessel is if the if the promotion is up a vessel that’s empty, then it is kind of a bit ridiculous in a way, and this is something that is very real in schools, and I guess a little bit of a tricky line to navigate. Because what we don’t want is people who are shouting out about themselves and promoting themselves. Well, actually, there isn’t really anything there. Well, there isn’t actually is that it’s that low quality, you know, kind of response. I’m not saying that, you know, there’s never a point for anybody that they shouldn’t celebrate what they do, but you know, did that make sense? What was getting out there? Yeah. My feeling



is that in those situations, it could be because it’s not authentic, rather than that, because there isn’t anything there. So it could be people feeling that they need to, they need to say something themselves, and they’re not quite sure what to say. So they just blurt out something.


Nadine Powrie  34:36

But it’s about confidence, isn’t it? Yeah. Because Because some some people they don’t really know. I mean, we’re coming back just trends here, but they don’t really know what they can offer and what they can bring to the table. You know, either because they’ve not been told by their managers. Because you know, many managers I’m gonna say, don’t, don’t don’t always take the time. aim to price people and to tell them what they’re doing very well. And at the moment, we’ve got a lot of tired people who are trying to just, you know, it’s really difficult at the moment. And I can see it with my client. And when I tell them, you know, the strengths, and they just have difficulties to see that kind of, you know, kind of, and so what, you know, everybody’s doing it. We’re all surviving on those zoom things. So I don’t think I’ve got technology skills or whatever. But at the end of the day, it’s about making sure that there is something done at work that nourish, you know, the talent that you have that keeps going so that you, you want to talk about what you’re doing well, and you know, you feel good about it. And it does serve a purpose within the organization. It’s not about being arrogant. It’s just about sharing. And yeah. Thank you, Nick. Thank you, Nick. Sheriff. Nick is a friend of ours should be isn’t. And Nick is in Dubai, actually. So thank you very much, Nick, keep asking us questions. And Sarah, if you need us to answer any more questions, please do.



And the LinkedIn user as Natalie



I wonder if Nick’s got sort of correcting my clumsy interpretation of what he says because he’s saying it, there’s visibility, need an audience who will recognize and understand. So as a necktie, I mean, I’m intending to be visible, but the audience that I’m being visible with in front of, I need to I need to be sufficiently explicit about what I’m promoting. That is understood and recognized. Yeah. I don’t know. That’s interesting. Yeah. I’m also wondering whether whether there’s a sector difference here, Nikki, you know, you You’ve a large chunk of what you’ve done has been in the charitable sector. You know, do you think there’s a Do you think there’s a difference here in terms of promotion, self promotion with regard to as compared with business?



That’s a really good question. John, I, I honestly don’t know the answer. I do know that there are people in all teams within the charity sector, so in like finance teams, or in the front, the frontline teams who are there for the cause. And that potentially might get in the way of visibility. Yeah,



it actually does. And I can vouch for that having worked with a lot of housing associations and nonprofits. And with the people I’ve worked with there, they’ve said to me, I don’t want to be, I don’t want to be visible, I just want to do my job, because I love my job. And this is what I want to do. But then when we will pick up, they want to have a bigger impact. So I’m like, right? Well, how are you going to have a bigger impact, you’re going to, you know, get to the next level, you want to do have that opportunity, and you want to run with it. So we need to get you to that place. And to do that, I think visibility is important to make sure that they can so it does all tie together. But I totally agree with you, Nikki that. I think it depends on the sector and the values that are attached to individuals and why they do what they do in the first place. And, and then trying to piece that together with that ties



in a lot as well with the caring professionals, doesn’t it and the public sector. And I’ve got a friend who’s a social worker, and she was adopted before and said, went into social work, and that she doesn’t want to be a manager, because actually, she really, really enjoys the frontline work. So that there’s those aspects as well.



Yeah. And I think that’s and that’s it as well, you know, it’s it’s not about when we talked about career progression. It’s not that it’s not always a promotion, it’s if you enjoy your job, amazing. But from that point of view, I would I would be saying, well, what can you do to help raise visibility for your work, you know, so then I’ll understand it more. I mean, there’s so many different levels to this. And you only have Instagram to see doctors now from generation said that, talking about all sorts of things on Instagram, which I absolutely love because insight into GPS that I probably would never have had before because I know and see them and talk to them five minutes, and then I’m out of there. So now it’s up a new world and I love it. I love it.



So the key point is whatever job you’ve got, your impact can be improved. You know, whatever job you’ve got, and whatever your Yeah, your aims and ambitions are, your impact can be improved by visibility.



And intention is, is is right in the middle of this, isn’t it? Yeah.



Yeah. Sorry, yeah, I’m trying to, there’s quite a few comments that have been shut up and trying to get in. It’s great because the conversation is so interesting Sara’s come back, and said, it’s been familiar and comfortable with your strengths. And I suppose the self promotion will be authentic. We’ve been saying it’s about the intention about the authenticity. And she also says the empty vessel issue would come with promoting yourself without any truth behind what you’re saying. And expertise. I would kind of add on to that. And then Nick is saying, is there a subtlety to the delivery of visible action? Is, is that just because you’re articulate, even convincing at times doesn’t mean you deserve to benefit from it? Totally. And then he says, I suppose most things are always a team effort.


Nadine Powrie  41:05

Well, it’s interesting, actually. Because when you’re a business, you know, we’re all business. People, right? We have we realize, we are either self employed, or we have a limited company. And we don’t have a team well, until until today. Until today, but I didn’t have a team. So, Nick, when you say I suppose most things are always a team effort. I think it depends. where you work, really. Because when you’re a one person, and Gemma, you’re one person in your business. Yeah. And Nikki, you are one person. And John and Jenny, you are one person. So it’s not always a team effort. It’s got to come from you actually.



Is Yes. It’s fascinating, isn’t it? I mean, all all, all of us are? I mean, you’ve just gone through one person, one person, one person. Yeah. But we’re all seeking to, to impact and influence others. Others? And that’s key. Key thing in it really?


Nadine Powrie  42:13

Yeah. But it starts with you. It starts with you as one person. Yeah, you know, you need to have a lot of determination and strength. And and,



you know, I’m a self promotion convert in just a few minutes of conversation.



I would love to ask Nadine. Because, Nadine, you clearly went through this process, and it might help other people on the line. So how do you get from being really uncomfortable to be uncomfortable? Well, first of all you


Nadine Powrie  42:45

do first, first of all, you do a session with Gemma. You do a session with Gemma and she will ask you questions where you will probably think yeah, what do I have to lose? You know, ultimately, what do I have to lose? And what’s the cost of not doing that which deeply I want to do, but I am preventing myself from doing it. Because I think that people are gonna think this and that. And then you have a mountain before you know it. And it’s kind of, you know, jump there, do it. And what’s the worst that could happen? And it’s exactly what I did. When Jim and I we had we had our sessions. I thought, yeah, of course she’s right, you know, and, and you just do it, and then you start, you see the benefits straightaway. And you think, why have I not done that before? And why do not do I not know that? You know, I mean, I’m quite experienced and I’ve done quite a lot in my in my career. So why have I not done that? And why am I putting so many barriers in front of me. Sometimes it just takes you, you need to be ready for it. That’s the thing, you need to be ready. And perhaps at some point in our career, we’re not ready. That’s okay. You know, you have to mature it’s gonna be the right time, the right place with the right people on the right platform. You know, it just depends. So I think my secret of overcoming has been to do the session with Gemma. So everybody around the world if you want a session with Gemma dated, you know, and and then after to reflect and, you know, go for it. I mean, you only live once anyway. Right? Just go for it. That’s true. Yeah,



I think so. If people are sorry, Jenny. I was just gonna say just to add on that. I mean, we do look at values and the things that are holding you back and those barriers that Nadine mentioned, but I think a tip really, for anyone tuning in who’s you know, at that stage of going, I want to, I’m ready, I want to increase my visibility. It’s not always to think that you have to jump in at the deep end. And I think there’s power in recognizing your strengths and staying within you Comfort Zone sometimes, you know, everyone talks about push out your comfort zone. And you know, the magic is on the outside of the comfort zone. Yes, I do love that. And I do do that myself. But I also do things that feel good. And the things that I know I’m good at, and I start there. So I think sometimes that’s really valuable as well to think, you know, small steps, I’m just going to do this one thing that I’m really good at, I’m really good at writing. So I’m gonna write a blog, or I’m gonna write an article, you know, I’m really good at talking. So I’ll go on podcasts or whatever it is, you find your thing. And I think you can just start and get some quick wins. And then confidence grows. Generally,



I think, yeah, I think in terms of visibility, this takes a lot of beating. You know, we’ve been doing these for, what, three months now. And I think that when we first started it was it was very much a leap into the dark, because we didn’t know who was going to be watching what they’d be thinking, we still don’t know. Because although there are hundreds of people watch this, we don’t know a lot about who they are. And I think that when the Dean first asked us to come on, I was very hesitant, because it’s really sticking your head up above the parapet, which is the sort of negative flip side about being visible. And, you know, we chat and we don’t profess to be experts, we’re just chatting. But nevertheless, we’re putting ourselves out there. And there is an expectation with that, that people will be listening. And I think that we’ve got loads of positive feedback. So it obviously is working. But I think it took quite a lot of courage for all of us at different levels, you know, for Nadine for coming up with it and for leading and focusing all this and for John and I just to be in the wings and just, you know, giving our 10 Pennyworth each week, and it’s been great. But it’s been in terms of visibility. It’s it’s, it’s pretty high up there. Yeah.


Nadine Powrie  46:49

Nick, Nick, next question. Oh,



can I just say that I thought it was really, really great to hear no Dean’s personal story there. And I think what what chimed with me was was when you were saying you sort of talk to yourself, and you realize that you were putting up so many barriers. And I think that’s, that’s really what can help some people. And somebody was talking to me a while ago, and was saying, you know, I want to work hard. And then I want people to notice that I’ve worked hard and I want them to promote me. I want them to notice me and reward me and promote me. And then they realize that actually, that’s not the way the world works. So sometimes it is about saying these things out loud and sort of realizing how they sound isn’t it?



Very good. Yeah.


Nadine Powrie  47:44

So sometimes it’s about reconciling yourself. Because you know that some people think that you are amazing and perfect. And you know, all of that kind of thing. When deeply you know that actually, no, you’re not, I’m certainly not perfect. And you know, when I speak English, I know I make mistakes. Okay, well, I live with it. So I think it’s, it’s not a big deal to go live and to have a great conversation. Even if we make mistakes, the world is not going to collapse. It’s not the end of the world. At the end of the day, it’s, you know, how can we help people? How can we make them feel better? How can we empower them? And if it means removing those barriers to give that to people? I think it’s what matters?



It isn’t this thing that Nikki said there was a fantastic way to learning, isn’t it that if if if in going through this you realize something about yourself, you realize that the the world isn’t, isn’t there to be on your side, you know, that we were not guaranteed an easy ride that no one ever guarantee that for us. But that’s there’s a there’s a lot for learning there. And I’ve been listening to what you’re saying and wondering, you know, I think it’s where you started Gemma, really? I don’t know that it was so much schools, but certainly businesses. And I was wondering what the landscape is looking like, you know, if you if you sort of stick your head up above and just sort of get your binoculars out and have a look, you know, is there real interest and understanding for this sort of developmental stuff? Or or are we still in a trench?



I think what I can see and the companies I’m speaking to and working with, they’re very keen on, you know, developing their female talent. And they can see that there’s this gap between women holding back and not not speaking up about how great they are, and them getting promoted. And I think they see that there’s a responsibility on both sides. Which I think is amazing. And I think we need that more and, and we need everybody, you know, for me, and I’m always talking about women’s career progression. I know This is not just about women. But for me. You know, this is not just a women’s issue, it’s everybody’s issue. And I think we need, and I think we need to really embrace that. And I can see companies doing more of that. I have conversations with people I’ve had conversations with, you know, really senior senior guys, and they’ve told me, I don’t think we’ve got a lot of ambitious women. And I’m like, How do you know, but I can understand, not heard women talking about their ambitions, you know, there’s that there’s that I read this somewhere. And it’s, and I can see it, how it how it works, but you know, a man going into his new job on the first day and going, I’m going to have that corner office in 12 months, I’m going to have that position and a woman going into her, her job on the first day, probably would never dream of saying that, you know that I want to be the boss. And I think and that’s a generalization, but I think this is this is what we’re looking at. And I think it’s just about changing the perception of it and, and that women can really embrace their expertise. And and just on that note, you know, self promotions on different levels, I think it was Nick who talked about you need an audience for visibility. I was thinking about that, as we’ve been talking about everything else. And, and actually, sometimes the women I work with just being able to say no to things I’ll say yes to opportunities, is a form of self promotion is a form of putting themselves first and getting the confidence from that. So maybe no one else saw that. Maybe there wasn’t a big audience, but for them personally, that can be huge. So I think maybe we don’t always need an audience. Maybe it’s about our own personal development as well. And just having the courage to, to say yes to things that we really want to do that we’re putting off, you know.



A couple more, a couple more comments. First of all, Emma and Dean were listening was great interest to what you say not the way you say you have a super accent. I’ve also. And Natalie has come in and said I’m at a point where I’ve been holding back making a website for a hobby of mine, do you think there will often be negative backlash of self promotion, and you have to make sure to push forward and believe in what you’re doing. Authenticity does bring vulnerability to



and vulnerability is powerful. You know, that’s a strength salutely a strength. So to be vulnerable to put yourself out there, you will reap the rewards. I think that’s the biggest fear is what if people call me out? What if people say negative things? I think that’s the biggest thing that comes up a lot. You just gotta go for it. You know, that’s about them, not you.


Nadine Powrie  52:31

But can I can I just say something here? I’m just sort of something. Because I think there is a difference between I think there’s a difference between speaking so verbal communication, and actually written communication. Because sometimes you can you can hide between behind written words, you know, you take the time to and I was doing that before on LinkedIn, I would write very nice LinkedIn post. And when I knew I would hide behind my written words, whereas when you are live, as we are doing now, you just cannot hide. Okay, not that easy. So I think there is a difference between between the written communication and verbal Oh, yes, I think I think so. Yeah.



Can I can I bring Lisa in? Lisa, I don’t know how I don’t know how you’ve got the time to listen to us this week, because you’ve got a conference on a STEM conference out in Dubai. So thank you, Lisa, for listening. And you say you don’t always have to have an audience to start. But when you start using your voice, the audience will come. It’s great. Thanks, Lisa, for that



confident approach. That’s brilliant, isn’t it? Yeah. Brilliant.


Nadine Powrie  53:44

So we’ve got it. We’ve got about six seven times. Yes. Yes, it has. What would be your final message? Thank you, Gemma, Jenny Chan.



Oh, the pressure of a final message. Yeah. For me, I mean, it is no more hiding. So that’s, that’s what I always talk about. And I think if everyone can maybe just look at where they’re at and where they want to be and how they’re going to get there. Does it involve you, you know, not being a secret anymore and talking about your success and and how great you are? I think for me, that’s what my final message is no more hiding. I want to see people fly in their own flag.



And I’m going to quote a friend of mine called Carrie Dorman, who has a saying, which is there’s no learning in the comfort zone and there’s no comfort in the Learning Zone. So I really appreciate that. Some people are naturally sort of more comfortable with being visible and however we do feel, it’s about trying to push, push us push ourselves a little bit into that learning zone and give ourselves a little challenge. Take one step at a time.


Nadine Powrie  54:58

I like that



you My, my one, my one. My thing I think I wanted to offer is the thing that I’ve learned, which is about intention. i So, you know, I said a little while ago, I sort of declared I was a sort of convert really a self promoting convert. And that’s that change has come about because I really believe that when you attend when your intentions are in the right place, then there’s actually no apology needed. Actually quite the opposite. It’s about you know, you just need to get out there and and if your intentions are wrong, and get back in the cupboard.


Nadine Powrie  55:42

Jenny, do you want to bring like again and Lisa?



Yeah. Next, just saying the issue about an audience is more about recognition, or a willingness to listen like your example regarding the guy who didn’t think he had any ambitious women. Maybe he wasn’t listening. Yeah, could well be. And Lisa’s just repeating that Nikki’s phrase, there’s no learning in the comfort zone, there’s no comfort in the Learning Zone. I love it. So I think that’s that’s a real takeaway from today. My takeaways from today is perhaps about focusing on Well, first of all, identifying the strengths that you’ve got and focusing on those, and not really spending time worrying about the issue about the negativities or the about the things that you might not be quite so good at. You know, because you you’ve got you’ve got real strengths, focus on them.


Nadine Powrie  56:31

Right, oops, somebody, somebody?



Yeah, just last minute, thank you for organizing this brilliant discussion today thoroughly enjoyed it and given them much to think about. Thanks so much.


Nadine Powrie  56:42

And I’ve got my daughter who keeps texting me, which is why you I guess what I would like to say is, hire a coach to have that conversation. Because I think sometimes it’s quite difficult to have the conversation with yourself. You know, where do you start with a blank piece of paper? And I think invest in a coach, who is an expert like Gemma to ask you the right question. Because in an hour, everything can change. And your mindset can change and shift completely in an hour. And it’s probably easier than if you do the work on your own with that blank piece of paper thinking Where do I go with that? So hi. Oh, Gemma, there is no excuse.



At promoting me, is this. Okay, yeah,


Nadine Powrie  57:39

I think you’re amazing. I think



that’s because her intentions are honorable and well placed. comfortable with doing



quick last comment, Nick, great conversation, lots of resonance for me on the outputs. And Anna, thank you all very interesting topic. Yeah.


Nadine Powrie  57:58

That’s brilliant. Well, thank you very much, everybody, for joining us today. And thank you to our guests, Nikki and Gemma, and thank you to all friends Jan and Jenny for being here as always. And I am going to be live on LinkedIn tomorrow morning. With three amazing people. We’re going to be talking about financial leadership, very different topic. An equally interesting topic. So tomorrow morning at nine o’clock. If you’re interested in financial leadership, then join us in the meantime, everybody. I hope you’re going to have a lovely evening and see you tomorrow. See you next week. Thank you. Bye bye


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