***The following transcript has been automatically generated and is presented here unchecked***
LinkedIn Live Have you ever had to deal with a colleague who…
people, challenging, organization, talking, colleague, happening, person, leaders, bullying, toxic, thought, conversations, culture, jenny, leadership, team, feel, important, speak, conflict
Nadine Powrie [00:02]
And we are live a very good afternoon to everybody. My name is Nadine Powrie. I’m an executive and leadership consultant, and and coach, and I’m also a workplace mediator. And apologies for my voice today because I lost my voice at the beginning of the week. And I still sound a little bit rough. So apologies for that.
Hello, my name’s Jenny Ling. I do these LinkedIn lives quite frequently with Nadine. And we always have a time to introduce ourselves. And each time, they vary slightly in terms of what we say. I’m a leadership development consultant. And I work a lot in schools alongside leadership teams, longtime side head teachers, I develop and design and deliver leadership programs. And I mentor, senior leaders in schools.
Nadine Powrie [00:49]
And we’re a bit late because Jenny and I were discussing a very exciting project that we’re working on at the end of February, where Jenny and I are going to be collaborating on something, which is very exciting. We can’t say why yet. But it explains the why we’re a little bit a little bit late. So again, apologies for that. So last
time, sorry. We lost track of time, we were just chatting.
Nadine Powrie [01:18]
We did, we did. Okay, so So today we’re going to be exploring how to deal with a challenging colleague. And again, we need to give some a little bit of background as to why we are talking about these topics. And people have been asking me every week, you know, how come that? I mean, how do you choose your topic every week on LinkedIn? And what is the what is the why be behind that? So Jenny, do you want to explain the why
the why the challenging conversations with colleagues? Yes. Okay. I think it’s probably because we’ve talked a lot about challenging conversations around organizations and about leaders and others. And I think that one of the things that we haven’t covered, which I think is, in some ways more difficult is dealing with a colleague who who might be challenging because you aren’t necessarily senior to them, nor junior to them. So I think what we were thinking about is, how does that differ from somebody in your own team, not being challenging somebody in another’s team, or somebody on your own level? Do the same rules still apply? And I think we’ve talked quite a bit about this, and also how it’s most appropriate to respond, because I think it’s not, you don’t respond in the same way, if it’s somebody who below is a member of your team, where you’re leading the team. So I think we’ve we, you and I have both been team members, quite recently, and I think that within being a team member, there’s highs and loads of that. I think we’ve both deliberately stood back from leadership for a while because we just wanted to be in the team. And I think that when you’re an I suppose I call us both natural leaders, because we quite often naturally fall into that position. And then when something happens within a team, and yet you’re not in charge of the team, then that kind of makes you have to think through a different process. And I think that’s probably where it’s coming from, from my point of view anyway.
Nadine Powrie [03:28]
Yeah, I remember we talked again about that when we were hurt in Dubai recently, you and I were brainstorming what we would like to talk about. And one of the I remember mentioning to you that some people are asking, you know, what is different between the world of education because we both work in education, but we equally do some work with the corporate world. And whether you work in education or in the corporate world, you will have a member of staff who is challenging. Yeah, I think the type of industry, the areas in which you work is almost irrelevant. I see as a problem will will happen. So to anybody who is listening to us today, and the type of industry doesn’t matter. What matters is that it’s about people. And ultimately, it’s always about people. So I think we thought that this topic could target kind of everybody it’s not, it is not a specific audience. Anybody in any, in any job really can find themselves having a challenging colleague. So when I was writing the post on LinkedIn, I kind of brainstorm the scenarios of you know, what is a challenging colleague because what may be challenging for me, and of indeed work may be challenging for the clients. I work squeeze, may not be challenging for you, Jenny, for example, or indeed for some of our colleagues in the world. So I talked about being over critical, I talked about having a short temper about making some personal remarks about lacking respect about talking about others behind their back. I think there are many other examples that would qualify people being challenging work.
I think the people, funnily enough, I’m thinking about the people that come to mind. And I think that one of the things that we found is also working in a different culture. And I think that anybody who’s working in a different culture has to adapt their expectations to the cultural norms. And I think that you have both struggled with this a little. And I think that the cultural norms working in the Middle East, for instance, in terms of leadership, in terms of giving people equal space, and respect, I think are slightly different from working in a team in the UK. And we’ve almost always been part of multicultural teams. Yes. And sometimes you, I find that I probably challenge people in a way that I don’t mean to, because I’m not necessarily understanding what the cultural norms are. And I think I try, it’s an it’s an added pressure, when you’re working in another in another culture to Remember to be respectful. And to understand what you may say or do may seem challenging to somebody, but equally, somebody might be challenging you, but not meaning to because again, that’s part of their culture. So I think that for you, and I, that’s been quite, I mean, we’ve been doing this for a number of years, we’ve been going to and from Dubai for about six years now. And each time, you know, we meet a lot of people again, don’t we we meet a lot of, of international consultants from all over the world there that we’ve met throughout the past six years. And it’s interesting to see how they develop into into more and more senior roles. But I still find that quite challenging. And I find that I have to really be very self aware not to become that challenging person. Because of the the situation we’re in, does that make sense does. And
Nadine Powrie [07:40]
I think it’s a very good point to bring in terms of the culture in which we are, that could perhaps, make us a challenging partner, without us being conscious of that, just because there is a culture of difference. And I, I think I totally agree with you. And while I was listening to you, I was also thinking about code of conduct, for example, you and I, we’ve been had teachers, and we’ve had code of conduct in our organization. And you know, some time perhaps you naively believe that you’ve got a code of conduct, and you’ve got your policies, and therefore everybody’s going to abide by that. And it’s all going to be extremely well. And everybody’s going to get on very well. And actually, it’s not the case. So it’s made me reflect that sometimes you can have the processing in place protocols in place the policies in place, but actually, because people are people, it’s quite difficult to, to tick all the boxes on those policies, because people come to work. You know, we all have a story, we all carry luggage. And, you know, things things happen. And I don’t think that people, I think I’m quite convinced of that. But perhaps I’m wrong. I don’t know. I don’t think people mean to be challenging. In most of the circumstances, it’s certainly in my career. A majority of them, they don’t mean to be challenging. I think sometimes they don’t even know they’re challenging. It’s because nobody throughout their career, I’ve actually said, well hang on a minute, let’s speak about this. You know, how do you feel and what do you think of? And it’s because we’ve not given enough feedback to people that they continue to behave in a way that they think is perfectly acceptable, which actually isn’t acceptable, but it’s because people have not dare say anything, have feared, say something. And therefore we are where we are because of the legacy of perhaps you know, past leadership or colleagues who haven’t had the courage to say something and And so I’ve been thinking about that quite quite a bit.
I think I think, whilst you were talking, it reminded me, I probably told you about this, I’ve been working in a couple of special schools locally here. And I was doing some performance management in this special and outstanding special school last week. And I talked to the students, I talked to the teachers, the governor’s etc, etc, to get out sort of 360 degree view of it. And it was very interesting to hear particularly that the students talking and their view of their school and their previous schools was in their previous schools, their teachers didn’t understand them. So if they couldn’t do the work, they were shouted at, but here in this school, they understand us. So if we can’t do something, they explained to us it to us in a different way. And then the, you know, talking to the teachers talking to the parents, they, you know, the triangulated it brilliantly, and it’s made me think a lot about how, as a head teacher, I had expectations, and I thought I had codes of conduct and expectations, etc, etc. But actually, alongside that is this great big thing called assumptions. And I think that when we’re in a in a role in which we’re quite comfortable, we go along making assumptions about people. So we make the assumption that they will behave in a certain way, make the assumption that they know how to behave in a certain way. And we make the assumption that they’re okay with things which would enable them to behave in a certain way. But the more I think about it, the more if I was being really generous. I would be saying that if somebody is challenging within a team, there are distinct reasons why they’re not. Most people are not challenging just because they’re awkward.
Nadine Powrie [12:01]
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
There’s a level of discomfort that triggers that. So take, for instance, a colleague within a within within a team that you’re working in is is argumentative, and it’s rude or whatever. And why are they argumentative or rude. And I know myself how I feel, because these teams can be very challenging, and the complexity of the information that we have to absorb is, is quite something and I know sometimes I feel oh, my goodness, I’m not sure I can quite do this and that, but I don’t explode outwards, I kind of go inwards more to try and sort it out. But others react in different ways. So say, for instance, somebody is being rude and awkward. Then, if we were being really positive role models, we’d try and find out what that what the trigger was, what was going on, and not necessarily at that time, because the worst thing I think you can do is to come straight back at somebody when they are like that, you kind of have to walk away and leave that time. But I think that I’ve always thought this is so but I think having been to this school and seeing what could have been behavior at the extremes, because students are there because they have additional needs, and some of them very severe dif, different needs. So if a if a culture or an organization can absorb and support and enabled these these students to develop, then surely an organization can do the same. So I’m kind of putting forward the idea that actually there’s something wrong within the organization. If you’re getting that sort of behavior, that was a very long answer.
Nadine Powrie [13:47]
No, no, I really like it. I really like. And I totally agree with you about the assumptions. And I think I think we think in the same way that when you’re a leader, you have responsibilities. And I think that I’ve always felt like that. And I’m sure that you do too, because I know the conversations we’ve had is when something goes wrong. I always ask myself, how could I have? How could I have prevented that to happen? Yeah, it doesn’t mean that I blame myself, right. But because I am focused on resolution, because I am a problem solver. Because I’m left brain I have to explain everything that’s happening. I always questioned myself about what is it that we could have done that could have prevented that. And at the end of the day, it’s not always about the person as you said who you know, is is making comments that are not appropriate is being you know, critical to somebody. It’s not always about those people and what they say sometimes it’s about what the lead to what their line manager, what the organization is about. And that’s why, I think going further on and what you are saying, taking it further a little bit. I think for me, it would be to make sure that you develop the culture of prevention so that those things don’t happen. I mean, you can never make them not happening, because we’re all human being. But I think having a culture of prevention is really important. So how do we do that, because you have to have I talked about process earlier on, you have to have something in place so that people have an opportunity to speak up. And, you know, I mean, I’ve always like my, my one to one with my team, I always made sure that they were happening with my direct report, you know, if I, if you work in the corporate world world, and it would be your your direct reports, if you, you know, have a boss, it could be your hand plus one or n plus two. But I always make sure that those meetings are taking place. And I always make sure that I I asked people, you know, is there anything I can do to help? I always make sure that I create an opportunity for them to talk I think, I think relationship is key. I’ve always said that people don’t everything in an organization, forget about the nice building, you and I, we’ve been in the in remote places around the world, where we’ve seen the most amazing things happening. And we, and yet, you and I, we’ve been into very expensive building, where we’ve seen, not very impressive things happening. So for us, it’s about people. So it’s about creating opportunities for people to talk, to speak up to have those one to one to have, you know, in the way that you conduct meetings as well, to make sure that everybody has an opportunity to talk, I think it’s really important. And creating that culture. Yes.
So what happens? I mean, we’re talking about me, we’re going back into sort of leadership mindset. But if, if we established that that’s part of the culture of our organizations, and yet still, we have somebody coming to us saying, I can’t work with this person, you know, they’re lazy, they rely on everybody else, they’re rude. What then, can be done, because if you’re the person in the organization, who is feeling unhappy about the way somebody else is going, what is your role as that individual, not as the leader, but as the individual? Because I think that hierarchy makes things a lot easier lack of hierarchy, I think, in these circumstances can make it quite challenging. So as a person who’s working with somebody who’s dead awkward, and he’s actually holding the team back, what can I do as an individual? Do you think?
Nadine Powrie [18:07]
I think even if you’re not the team leader, I think you can talk to that person to try to understand what’s at the root of the problem. You don’t necessarily I mean, you’ve mentioned each earlier on, you don’t necessarily want to speak to that person, when the problem is at its worst, because they are very emotional. They are, you know, it could actually make things worse. But the fact that, you know, somebody comes to you saying, things can confide in you, I think straightaway is the sign that that person trust you. And it’s a little bit like what you and I, we talked in our coaching session, you know, the iceberg what you don’t see. So it’s about getting to the bottom of that to understand, but I think we must always remember that there is what one person tells you, because they perceive a problem, right? And there is the real world, and the real world, and the situation could be actually very different. So for me, it would be to make sure that I hear them, I’m listening to them. I’ve got a duty of care and a colleague, you know, but also, that I make sure that they are aware that actually the world might be might be different. And I think depending on what’s happening, I’ll probably, you know, advise them to, to have a chat with their line manager, I would probably do that. But if it was something that would really really worry me
at cyberbullying, because I think bullying, I think, I think I think you and I have the confidence in most situations to deal with what’s in front of us, but I think a lot of people, for instance, if there was a younger colleague was being bullied by an older colleague, then that makes it really difficult because that older colleague may not necessarily be on the same And team, they may or may not be senior to them. But I think that I think bullying in the workplace can be a really, really challenging thing for somebody who perhaps isn’t as I mean, we’re very experienced. And we’ve been in lots of situations and we manage most of them. But you know, you think, I mean, I know that our own kids are more than able to deal with that as well. But you still get younger, younger people used to get older people within different organizations who haven’t got the confidence to deal with somebody who intimidates them.
Nadine Powrie [20:38]
But I think I think it comes back to leaders who are in place, and who actually should see we all have a responsibility to see things. And I think, you know, in the case of bullying, it just doesn’t happen like that people have, you know, display behavior. I think people talk as well. And I think as a leader, it’s about listening to what what’s being said, because if you hear on the grapevine that some things are happening, that you need to look into those things, you need to press stop, because actually, no, it doesn’t mean it’s true. By the way, it doesn’t mean it’s true. But you need to give it some attention.
I’m talking more of the point from the point of view of the person, the younger person, or the the less confident person who’s being bullied, not too much the leader, because I think that we’ve kind of talked a lot about the leadership, but this is about a colleague, what do I do? I’m not confident to deal with this colleague, because they’re a bully. So I’m just going to keep away from them and actually make sure that I don’t take I don’t have anything to do with them. If if I can accept they’re actually my line manager.
Nadine Powrie [21:48]
I mean, yeah, I’m talking about it from the from the victim, if you want to look at it, in that point of view, it’s the person who’s having to deal with this colleague, who is either bullying or intimidating, or, or just generally, maybe taking credit for their work. You know what I mean? I’ve certainly come across that I’m sure you have whereby, you know, there was a school that I worked in, that somebody senior to me always came up with these brilliant ideas. And I thought, well, yeah, I’ve heard of those before. So I mean, it’s, it’s those sorts of things. And it’s, it’s for people who perhaps don’t have the level of confidence that we’ve got over the years in terms of how they would deal with that.
Nadine Powrie [22:27]
I think it’s important. I mean, it depends where they are, Jenny, I think it’s if we are talking in a in a school, we know that in school, there are systems for people to go and talk to other people, you know, the buddy system. And I would hope that pupils have the confidence to do something, if you’re, if you’re, if you’re a young person, you can also talk to your parents, this is quite a few people that you can talk to, and the school should have been, you know,
teachers and people within the within an organization I’m talking, you know, more more more about this team. So this team that we’ve talked about, and it’s those really
Nadine Powrie [23:04]
I don’t understand what you’re talking about any? Because I still, I thought you were talking about a young person.
At one. Yeah, they can be I was talking about the person on the team who perhaps isn’t as confident to deal with it. So it could have been, it could be a young teacher who’s being intimidated by an older colleague, you know, just as an example. So it’s still about being in the workplace. Yeah. But how, what is what what would our recommendations to this young person who’s not terribly confident, who feels this rather large character looming? Who’s trying to dominate them? Or bully them or steal their work? Or?
Nadine Powrie [23:44]
Yeah, I think he’s coming back to what I’ve said, My recommendation would be them to speak up. And I do come back Jenny, to the culture of the school of the organization. I mean, you know, anybody that is in a position of leadership, be middle leaders, right? Of top leaders that will see, I mean, the role of a leader is to is to look to see right, and you would see that something is not quite right, if you take the time to talk to people, because being you and I, we’ve talked about what great leadership is, and if you talk to people, then you will realize actually something is isn’t quite right, or you’re, you’re hearing things and, you know, and I think it’s it’s your job, to go and see that person and to have to have a little, you know, a little chat and say how, how are things going and it doesn’t mean that that person is going to open up straightaway. It means that they may not want to open up, but you are certainly opening, opening a channel of communication whereby they might, they might say a few things where you’re going to be be able to help them a little bit. It might be, you know, you need to establish confidence in the relationship trust in the relationship for them to, to feel that they can start speaking up. I mean, it goes back to what we’ve said at the beginning, that sometime it’s the, you know, it’s the organization’s responsibility to also make sure that everybody can speak up and can have the courage to speak up. Absolutely. I always come back to that.
But let’s I mean, let me give you an example. Then I used to, I deliver MP Q, SL, an MP Q ml. And I remember quite, maybe one out of it, within every cohort I’ve done has been working in a toxic environment. So this is a person who may be, you know, there may be aspirant middle leaders that may be aspirants, senior leaders, there could be deputy heads, but it could be the head, it could be the deputy head, it could be somebody quite senior who was toxic. And in a, if you have an organization with a culture that’s toxic, then what you’re saying there doesn’t really apply because, and it’s not it’s not as easy, as you know, find, you know, get the time said and get another job. You know, we all know, it’s not that easy. You have to you know, you might not be able to move for family reasons. But I think that working with we’re taking it a step further now in terms of this person is now working in a toxic environment, and the toxicity comes from the top. So I, you know, I don’t know what advice we could give somebody like that. I mean, I know what I said at the time. And it was very much about equipping themselves for the next role and keeping their eyes open for the next role, which would probably be outside the school. But that’s not always feasible. And sometimes these people are working in a toxic environment, and it’s about giving people the sort of strategies and strengths to be able to do that.
Nadine Powrie [27:10]
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a tough one. Definitely. Because I think when you talk about preparing yourself for the next job, yeah, sure. I mean, you know, do your research, and, and check everything out, and do your risk assessment. But once you’re in a job, and once you’ve got toxic people at the top, well, you’ve got several solutions, you can engage, and be very courageous, and engage and dare speak up. That might costume you. Yeah. And, and or, you, you can go into mediation if it’s with a particular person. And you can request that because that can be requested in any place of work. You can contact a class for for advice, because they will be neutral. And some time to talk to somebody who is neutral, will be helpful, because when we are in the midst of it, we sometimes lose the dimension of the problem. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, but we are obsessed by it. The alternative journey is that you leave the organization because it’s toxic. I think it’s a little bit like it, sometime you can leave an organization or you can leave a project because you know, things are toxic. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Absolutely. And I think it goes back to what you and I, we talked about few weeks ago ago, that red line, you know, how much do you undo something that you’re not going to be able to resolve? It depends how you want to resolve it, if it depends, if you want to resolve it in depends if the place of work where you are working, you think is the right one. I mean, if he’d stopped see, you know, you could ask yourself, why do you want to work in a toxic place. But again, at the end of the day, there are different avenues that somebody can take and and make the best decision for for themselves. I hope I’ve given a few points.
I think that’s really helpful. Because I think that if you are in that toxic situation, I think you can’t see where to go. And I think those pointers that you just pointed out are a really good idea. And I mean I I left a job once. I haven’t left many jobs actually because I tend to move move on within a job. But I left one job because the role itself had become one So I wasn’t happy with the organization. It wasn’t toxic, there was nothing wrong with the organization. But as an educationalist I was being put into a project management role. And I just felt so uncomfortable and so mismatched and inept, because it wasn’t my interest or strengths that I then left without something to go to. Now, that’s a luxury that not everybody has. But sometimes your mental health and well being is actually more important. And I’m not saying that lightly. You know, you’re in a you’re in it, you’re in an organization that’s toxic, walk away. But sometimes, you’ve got to make that decision, if you’ve tried all the other avenues, the sorts of things that you’ve been talking about. And actually you’re getting, it’s having it. And I think that when you are in that sort of hold on to a better reason, whereby you’re, you’re there and you’re you’re you’re feeling under pressure from all the toxicity or from the mismatch of what you’re doing to what you want to do, then sometimes you can’t see how unhappy you are. But maybe others can. So I think that it’s important that if you are in that situation, and the worst thing you can do is not necessarily to walk out without something else. People say something else will always come around, well, it won’t always come around. You know, you’d be lucky, you’ll get another job. jobs don’t come through luck. They come through graft and networking, and you know, not giving up and accepting something that’s perhaps not what you might want, ideally. But I think that there may well come a time when you have to decide walk away. I think,
Nadine Powrie [31:46]
I think the advice that I would give is, speak to your friends speak to somebody who is close to you, and who knows you. Because you just mentioned the word network. But network can be can be friends, I mean, you and I, we are very good friends in case people don’t know. And we’ve talked to each other to one another when we’ve you know, encountered difficulties or challenging situations. It’s been a few, it’s been a few. Yes. And and, and the beauty of that, is that because you’re an external person, you’re not part of the you know, the situation, that, for example, I mean, then you’re able to give me some advice, or to give ideas that perhaps are not thought of because of where my mental health is taking me
for example, exactly. That’s the hole that you’re in. Yeah.
Nadine Powrie [32:43]
And I think that’s very valuable. Because you’re not part of the organization. So talk to somebody who knows you who you trust. And, you know, you said yourself, the grass is not greener somewhere else. And leaving isn’t always an option for people. There’s many things you can do before you leave. But the fact that you can talk about it with different people, I think sometimes can help.
Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt. And I think that’s, you know, be it friendship be at a colleague, as you say, it’s somebody that you trust, because I think that when you are down there, you can’t you can’t see things objectively. And I think that third, that third party triangulation is really important.
Nadine Powrie [33:33]
Yeah. And I was reading something about, about conflict, actually, you know, last week we did you and I really do LinkedIn, live on walking, walking away from challenging conversation. And, and it made me think that we’ve all got boundaries, we’ve all got a red line. And I keep coming back to that. And I think what really is really important is that we don’t have to explain our boundaries to people they don’t. They don’t have to agree with our boundaries, I think it’s really important to do things for you and for what’s best for you, and not to have to justify why you’re doing something or why you’re not doing something to people, if that makes sense. I think I think that there is a tendency to want to justify the decisions that you’re going to make because something’s going wrong, but actually, you know yourself who you are, and you have to trust yourself and you know, what’s best for you. And I think it’s an I think it’s important, but if I come back to the organization, I think, organization have a duty to train their leaders and they’re managers so that those situations that we’ve just described are not happening. Now. I may be naive, right? I may be naive, perhaps, but I think that there is an investment to be made into training leaders and middle leaders to deal with. Absolutely, you know, colleagues,
that’s exactly why we do what we do.
Nadine Powrie [35:14]
It is and, you know, in the in the post that I wrote on LinkedIn, I mean, 60% of managers CCIP, add the survey and 60% of the managers said that they’ve not had the training. I mean, how can how else can you deal with, you know, a challenging colleague, if you’ve not had any training, I mean, your balance, make mistakes.
It’s not ops, it’s not necessarily intuitive either. I mean, going back to a school that I worked alongside for a year, I worked with their senior leadership team, I basically writing a leadership program for them over the year. And then at the end of the year, we went back and actually looked at the impact, because it had been longitudinal and, and what came out from all the different things that I done was the challenging conversations. And they weren’t necessarily great, big, deep, philosophically challenging conversations. But this is a school, this is a special school, where the students themselves are challenging, many of the parents are challenging, but many of the parents are challenged by the situation that they find themselves in. And I think that it was, it was fed back to me by the people themselves, but then it was fed back to me by their seniors, who had seen the increased confidence in the way these young leaders, were tackling some of the more difficult conversations that they were having with parents, and the wider stakeholders. And I thought, well, that’s, you know, 10 years ago, that wouldn’t necessarily have been my thought that that’s the most valuable thing that I can I can help these senior leaders with. So I felt that that that was kind of validation of the need to always have that within any kind of Leadership Development Program is that ability to know the steps to take, because it, if you were doing it intuitively, nine times out of 10, you’d come in, quite, quite not viciously, but quite strongly, whereas that’s the worst thing you can do. And I think that when people realize you stand back, and you actually plan it, and you go into a meeting, thinking what the outcome will be, rather than going in about feeling how you’re going to feel about it. So I think just little, you know, there’s little tips like that even if you don’t go full on training, there are still tips that you could, that you could did an organization could have that would help their employees with these challenging conversations.
Nadine Powrie [37:41]
Yeah, I was. I was reading in that report that managers are least confident with conflict. Yeah, and difficult conversations. And I was also reading that surprise you? No, no, I was also reading that. organizations do not like to do not like to put on training that are related to conflict and managing difficult conversation, because it doesn’t look good. If you, if you, if you are organizing training like that, it doesn’t look good, does it because it kind of assume that something’s wrong in the organization. But actually, it goes back to the culture of prevention that I was talking about at the beginning, because I am, I know, in every organization, there will be conflict, there will be difficult conversation to be had. And as you said, you know, we have the duty to equip people, so that it can be resolved very quickly. And if you address those very, very earlier on, then you can resolve them quickly, as opposed to not addressing them, either because you don’t know how to address them or because you fear then here the problems are starting. And then when it goes to tribunal, because, you know, it does. And the judge will ask, so what training did you put in place? Yeah,
obviously, you know, it’s a very naive organization that thinks then there won’t be conflict. You know, it’s about I mean, surely, most organizations do kind of risk assessments and one of the risk assessments got to be around conflict. Because, you know, every family in the in the in the in the world has conflict at some stage or other don’t. And so every organization in the world will do as well it can be as it can be as touchy feely, and as you know, it can have all the best ethics, etc, etc. But But humans are humans. And yeah, yeah, you know, it’s a natural thing to happen. It’s not a sign of a failure. It’s like bullying, bullying will happen. It’s how you deal with it. Within your culture that’s important and conflict will happen and how you deal with that conflict.
Nadine Powrie [39:54]
Yeah, it’s interesting. You say that because I was, I was talking to an organization Turn about managing difficult conversation. And the director said to me, I don’t really like the term managing difficult conversations because it sounds as if we’ve got loads happening. And, and then I, it’s actually influenced me in talking about courageous conversations. And then when I started talking about courageous conversations, I had other clients saying to me, what is a courageous conversation? Because I’ve never heard of that. So, I’ve gone back to talking about what actually it is about difficult conversations. And yes to be you need to be a courageous leader to have difficult conversations, but it is what it is. Yeah, definitely. Jenny, I hope that we have given ideas about you know, what to do. When you are having to manage a challenging colleague, I hope that we’ve given enough strategies, tips, you know, advice for people to kind of know what to do where to go. But thank you very much, Jenny for welcome. Interesting. Today. Interesting as always, yes. And we we shall not be back next week, actually. Because next week, I will be, I will be away. So we will probably do the LinkedIn live in in a fortnight. Okay. But thank you very much, Jenny for today. And we’ll speak soon. Okay. Bye. Bye, Jenny.